Good point about the venue charges, though maybe we can blame the council for the extortionate rents.

I dont think venue charges are a problem. Venues COULD offer free space and just charge for the sound engineer but there are so many bands in Oxford now that turn up and dont even pull a handful. Neither the venue or the promoter make money. Thats why door prices are steep. To guarantee they dont anything. Bands should work hard to pull people to a show and it shouldnt be looked on as “they charge so much to hire the venue”. For alot of promoters in Oxford its a job, not only a means of supporting local music by offering bands shows.

Yep, totally agree, bands should work hard on getting people along to a gig and we’re not trying to say they shouldn’t have to. However, I think that lower door charges would encourage the people who are just in the pub for a drink to go into the music rooms rather than stay downstairs at the bar. I think people who arent really that involved/interested in the local scene are reluctant to pay £5/6 for bands they’ve probably never heard of, especially if they’ve only arrived at the pub halfway through the evening, but wouldn’t be adverse to paying a couple of quid on the off chance that they’ll see something they like. I’ve been to nights at the Jericho where the music room is relatively empty, but the bar downstairs is heaving. Any way of getting these people upstairs and intersted in local music has got to be worth thinking about.

Andrew (rivals)

this debate’s gently raged for years now – i used to charge £3 on the door, 20 years ago, so i really don’t think people are being overcharged if they pay a fiver now. i have worked doors on and off for many years, and it does seem to be all or nothing. people are either happy to pay a fiver, or will quibble if you ask as little as a pound. it’s not the amount, it’s just that they want it laid on a plate for free, so they can spend £30+ on booze and piss it against a wall. That seems unfair, but in many ways charging a fair amount for bands filters out the numpties and the people who attend really do want to be entertained.
bands can go a long way towards making things so much easier for themselves and the promoters by doing their bit to promote their gigs, and try not to do several in the same town every month. Those bands are really appreciated, and , once venue costs are covered, i’ll do my damndest to pay a band apporopriately and generously.

it’s not a full time job for me – just a wierdit hobby/habit of putting on bands i like and i think would do well for getting a chance to play. i have a proper income elsewhere, so it doesn;t matter if i make money, but i did decide at the beginning of this year that i’d try not to lose money, and i’d not pay bands if too few people attend – i’m not being harsh, but i cannot really afford to subsidise promoting any more.

personally i very rarely walk into a pub/club unless there’s live music – it’s a major incentive for me, and i’d happily pay for that, and expect bands to get paid for their efforts.

Kev said “venues COULD offer free space and just charge for the sound engineer”.

To be honest, mate, I think you’ll find many of them already do: if you consider the cost of paying engineers, and doorstaff/bouncers (if this is part of the deal), along with costs for upkeep/hire of the PA you’ll find there’s not much left of the hire charge for most of the venues in Oxford to puit in the bank. Some are expensive, but most only charge what bis reasonable to keep the venue running, & hope to make thier profit on the bar.

I agree with Jamess, I don;t think a pound either way makes much difference to people.

Anyway, GTI is still only £4, we do our level best ot keep it low, so I trust we’ll be seeing all of you lot on 30/5/09 for our 7th birthday gig – if you don;t come, I’ll know you don’t mean what you say ; )

It makes no difference to me weather its 3 or 5 quid cus like you Kev i want to see the bands regardless, what i think Andrew is saying though is that it makes a huge difference to the folk sat in the bar downstairs who havent come to see bands and dont read Nightshift so have no clue who the bands are or how good there supposed to be.

Thats why the Cellar is such a good venue for bands cus they get great exposure and granted that the majority of young folk in the Cellar on a Friday have payed for the DJ and night after the bands they still see the bands and hopefully in the process get turned on to a few local acts that they would otherwise have never seen.

i remeber when we first started gigging we were really lucky cus the first few bands we supported were similar in age and style to us so we quickly made freinds and got ourselves a bit of an audience but even now if im playing a venue that has a chocker bar downstairs weather were the first band on or headlining ill always try and blag a few tables to come upstairs and check out the bands, some do some refuse to pay.

When we first did gigs at The Zod, we charged £4. If you came to our gig you go to stay on for Boogie Basement for free. Fair enough. BB costed £5.

So, we used to advertise it to people who went to BB by saying GTI is “3 acts for -£1!”. It still didn’t work! I may be getting jaded & defeatist, but I don’t belive there’s a huge untapped market for live music, that we just need to know how to reach; I think there’s a tiny market for live music that’s well catered for, and a vast number of people who aren’t interested. They may say they’re kept out by price/time/location/age/etc but in most cases these are just excuses, they simply don’t want to know. Once I resigned myself ot this fact, I found promoting much more fun!!

I think it’s pretty simple really – the man on the street, the general public (or whatever cliche you want to use) simply doesn’t give a f*** about live music. Gigs could be free and and it wouldn’t improve turnout greatly.

Jay: there’s a bit of a problem with this statement: “the majority of young folk in the Cellar on a Friday have payed for the DJ and night after the bands they still see the bands and hopefully in the process get turned on to a few local acts that they would otherwise have never seen.”

The cellar doesn’t regularly put on bands on a friday night – thursday is the regular band night. And then when they do have live music on fridays , it’s usually one band, on about 11 and the main reason it gets busy is cos people want somewhere to go when the pubs shut.

“I wouldn’t pay more than 5 quid for non-name acts, unless it was an all-dayer.” – Colin MacKinnon

Is £6 really too much to see 3 local bands? Do you really think that there aren’t any local bands out there that are worth seeing for £6?

Out of interest – as a reviewer do you pay to see bands anyway?

Actually, Colin’s a saint, because he insists on paying to get into gigs he’s reviewing, even if he’s been offered a guestlist spot.

I, on the other hand, grasp anything free I can get my stinking hands on!

Hello Meanie

What do you think constitutes effective promotion of a gig? I’m not being defensive, I’m honestly interested. If the answer’s “Fly posting”, then my figures don’t bear out that claim. Any other ideas gratefully received.

For the record, Rob & I have never taken any money from GTI beyond expenses…altho, unlike some of you, I don’t see that it would really be a crime if we did.

people will happily pay £4-5 to get into a club, but won’t pay it to go to a gig. there are two very simple reasons for this. firstly, most people aren’t interested in live music, beyond an opportunity to go and stand in a field and sing along to oasis. secondly, most bands are terrible. i enjoy going to gigs, really, i do. but most bands aren’t very good. i mean, i’m pretty selective in the gigs that i go to, but i’d probably say that when i consider all the bands i’ve played with, or seen as part of larger bills, i’d rather have not seen them. maybe that sounds cruel, but thats how it is. i don’t go and see bands on the off chance they might be good, because its statistically very unlikely. i mean, i’ll listen to bands on myspace and if i like them i’ll turn up, but the reality is that if i was downstairs in a pub and was offered the chance to go and see the bands upstairs for a quid, i probably wouldn’t most of the time, because most of the time they wouldn’t be very good.

to be honest, what i find most troubling is the pattern that seems to be pretty endemic within live music of bands not watching other bands, and the people that come and see them not sticking around. i just feel like unless you have a very good reason, playing a gig requires a basic minimum of watching the other bands play. it is common courtesy. going downstairs to have a natter with your mates who came to see you is not on. i’ve sat/stood through some bloody terrible bands. i don’t see why others should get away with not doing so.

No, I agree with Matt here – most bands are terrible. If bands use gigs as practices (as you’ve implied Leigh) then bands can’t be upset when people don’t want to pay £5 to listen/watch them “practice”. Rehearsal rooms are for getting right, gigs are for putting on a show. I’m not saying that when a band first gigs they have to be polished, but at least get your sh*t together enough so that people feel they’ve got their money’s worth.

i dont think music works live at all….its just the wrong vehicle for music all together (i joke)

Sureley no one wants to see bands sounding over rehearsed a band can be tight yet still give you nothing, just as thers plenty of bands that are downright shambolic on stage but put on a show thats amazing.

Id give my right nut to have seen the Pistols live during the Sid year despite the fact i know the sound would have probably been awful.

i just wanna see a show! i want to believe a band means it, i can happily forgive a hundred mistakes if the band is passionate and is willing to spill a bit of blood for the audience.

oh yeah, jay – i have got so much better at singing since i stopped spilling blood instead of hitting notes, plus i spend way less time removing splinters of glass from my head after shows these days which leaves time for relaxing with drink/friends!
it used to be so important to me to set ourselves apart from every other band our audience could see live by putting in ludicrously ott performances but now after 7 years it feels like a.we have little to prove in that respect and more in other areas and b. that the music may have been suffering, in that it was not the most important bit as far as some were concerned and c. some people actually mistook it as fake carnage!
after all if u had to be one act on the legendary nin/marilyn manson/jim rose circus tour – which would it be? i feel like we have moved up that bill slowly but surely!

I know you don’t expect me to say this, but I agree with Matt.

Most music is rubbish. Most poetry is rubbish; most sculpture; most novels; most theatre. Art is really really hard to pull off.

But, where we clearly differ, is that I find it worth the risk to sit thru something that doesn’t excite me, because sooner or later you’ll find something joyous, and fantastic. And it’s surprising how often it happens if you put the effort in. As an example: altho a lot of acoustic singer-songwriters leave me cold, just think how much smaller my life would be if I hadn’t bothered to go to the 1st John Peel day at The X and discovered Ally Craig. And, no matter how jaded you are, the power of something good never palls. I was standing in the corner of The X with such old hands as Ronut & Mac (“clique!!”), & we looked at each other after a few bars and all said, “This guy’s *good*”.

Ally’s just an example, & I choose him because he’s never played GTI (purely a matter of architectural logistics!), so this post can’t be confused with self-promotion. But, what I’ve really enjoyed about running GTI for 7 years, is that quite often the acts that turn out to be fantastic are ones that didn’t necessarily set me aflame on paper or demo. It’s worth taking that step into the dark, I say.

Of course, the other side ot this is: sh*t bands are fun! If you have a mate to snigger about it with, anyway. My ideal night is about 3 good friends, 5 good ales, one fantastic act that makes me want to shake them by the hand as soon as they’re offstage, one promising but flawed act that you can spend a good while dissecting and arguing about, and one godawful fleabitten pile of cack that almost gives you an embolism trying to stifle the giggles. Yay!